Fourth Annual BF betleH Tournament

Taylor

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Phase 2 thoughts
Feb 19^th, 2006, 8:54am

I spoke to Ta'pz last night about this, but does anyone else agree that 7 matches is just a few too many for the second phase? Of the people I've spoken too most are tired of the combat now and just want the next phase to begin - I count myself amongst these people actually.

I know it's too late for this competition but it's a point I wanted to raise for next year.

What does everyone else think? Best of 5 or best of 7?

~Dan

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Jackie Clawson

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #1 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 9:08am

7 matches gives you more chance to recover your losses if you suffered any at the beginning, but one week for those is a bit too long, especially if you don't expect any big write ups from people at the end of the thing anyway. Wouldn't it be better to get Phase II over with ASAP, (say seven matches in five days....) and let the people involved in them but who won't make the final 16, post their stuff in designated forums, whilst Phase III commences? Thus, this will allow Phase III folks to recollect themseves and JP things properly instead of rushing through.

Maybe if the matches weren't run every 24 hours, but instead every 12 hours?

Since not every match has to be JPed or played out, I don't see why it should take 24 hours between things. (okay so it's to give people time to select their standing, but most keep theirs as it is from fight to fight anyway) and you can run 2 matches (one every 12 hours) on weekends for instance. so even if we get 9 matches next year instead of 7. you can run 2 on Saturday, 2 on Sunday and one on each weekday. if we stick to one week for Phase II that is.

However, thinking in terms of IC... 7 matches in one day is a bit of a stretch for most non Klingons.

Just curious: and this may have been raised before, this is the first year this Phase II thing is working. what was wrong with the way last 3 years had the system set up?

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Rear Admiral Jackie Clawson
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Jim Hunter

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #2 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 12:44pm

It might be (bear in mind I've not bothered to check past tourney set-ups), to give people more of a chance to write a fight, and perhaps a win. If your fighter is rubbish, then with a standard tournament a la the FA Cup, you could be going home with sod all to write about, especially if Pezzle/Taylor is your first round opponent. With seven matches and one to a day, the thing is streched out a lot more, but assuming people actually respond to write ups, that time could be needed. If K'Hare posts the results of round two just as I go to bed at 10pm GMT, and my opponent (lets say Clawson) posts part of a write up within a couple of hours whilst I'm sleeping, that'd be okay for them, but I wake and head straight to work, where even with a half day I don't get in till 1pm. By that time, round three's already been posted, and my next opponent might have posted the first part of my next round up as well. a 24hr schedule is the only way to make sure everyone's got the same amount of time to respond (during decent hours).

It's also worth noting that people such as Taylor/Pezhead/Bremer may subconciously see phase II simply as an obstacle that needs to be dealt with before the tournament proper can begin, so might take less interest in it and just wait for the final rounds where instead of a'noN they'll face up against people they know from within the fleet.

Whilst I intend to keep Hunter around IC till the end, people such as Patrick Gage or I, again may see Phase II as their only activity at the tourney, so will take more interest in it. There are a lot more and probably will be even more people in the future that get knocked out in Phase II than make it to Phase III, so in theory, it should be the bulk of the tournament activity OOC. To cut it down then, doesn't seem to make much sense even in an OOC sense whereby the seven rounds are posted more frequently. If I have a double shift at work, I could easily miss three, perhaps even four rounds if they're on a 12 hour schedule, and if I'm only having my character attend so I can improve my combat writing, that's a big loss.

It doesn't really matter who wins the tourney IC, but if you get knocked out early, you've got less to post about than the last 16, even if you involve yourself in bar chat. I think then, that this setup is a good thing, if ultimately designed for more responses than there have been.

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Taylor

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #3 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 1:05pm

As an aside, you should see T's Stats, winning once is pure fluke. He's got the skills of a young alexander Wink

I see what your saying, but we could do the same over 5 matches. My comment is raised purely from the OOC strains I've been under this year - it may be different for others but most of the people I have spoken too (Who I acknowledge usually agree with me) have found it just a hair's breath too long.

From my understanding so far this phase has been created to give people a chance to post, but there is a line between too much and too little. 7 feel's too long - especially since we started a little late. I can't say if 5 would be too little - I just thought it might be worth getting some feedback.

~Dan

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KentraDonrav

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #4 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 1:36pm

I think 7 is a good number, though possibly doing ten in the same time period would be good too. The more matches the more chance for things to even out. Under a five match game if a character gets two hard draws in the opening round then that's it they're gone. As it is now, or under a longer system, the character has a chance to come back.

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Jackie Clawson Combatant Kitty's Killer Kitty! Posts: 589 Gender:	Re: Phase 2 thoughts Reply #5 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 1:38pm can't have an even number of matches. then we'll have people winning 5 and loosing 5 and there's no 'tie breaker'
Back to top	Rear Admiral Jackie Clawson Commanding Officer USS Horizon - A Task Force CO Task Force 58 ---------- USS Horizon: http://horizon.taylord1.co.uk Task Force 58: http://tf58.bravofleet.com Biography: http://horizon.taylord1.co.uk/main.php?pageref=bio&crewid=47 IP Logged

KentraDonrav Combatant Trills rule. Posts: 248 Gender:	Re: Phase 2 thoughts Reply #6 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 1:43pm It's still possible to be tied statistically in this round, based on number of wins/loses. When I pointed this out it was pointed out to me that then things like Glory and Honour are used. The European Champions League in football uses an even number of games in the opening rounds, so it's not impossible.
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K`Hare totlh

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #7 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 2:02pm

Read what Hunter said. Now read it again and think about it.

This is the first year. My reaction to what has happened so far was we should have 9 or 11 rounds but do them every 12 hours. One other change I will attempt to make next year is to make sure you don't face the same person twice.

Giving just 24 hours gives people who might want to a chance to write stuff up, but as I said at the start, we don't expect people to write them up because its a short time when you consider real life. On the other hand, some people might know they aren't making it to phaseIII and may want to write up something. So they could pick one or two of their matches. to try and write up.

Going to fewer matches means a better chance that a good fighter will get knocked out and a bad one will get in. That's OK, but people might complain about that. Look at Kur'rk. He is a solid fighter. Early on he had a bad record. With 5 matches he would not have gotten in. Wolfe vs. Ta'pez was in round 1 I think. With just 5, he could have been knocked out. I don't mind a few underdogs (Taylor) getting in, but you need at least 5 before skill starts to really affect the tree. As it is, 2 fighters that should be in the top 16 don't have a chance now because of the schedule they faced or really bad luck. The valkris-bremer fight was a real upset.

So, I have two choices. I can go to 9 or 11 and reinterate that you don't have to write up everything. Maybe make that formal and only make space for people to write every other fight?

Or, I can come up with some sort of seeding that lets the clearly stronger fighters (Wolfe, Ta'pez, Satian, etc) skip some early fights.

This phaseII thing was a way to get more fights for people. Last year, with 32 or so fighters 16 only got one match which they lost, 8 got just 2 matches. The first year I think there were 24 fighters and so 8 fought an extra round, 4 were out, then 8 were out the next round. about 9 people got 1 match.

My personal feeling is go to 9 matches in two IC days, run every 12 hours. So everyone would post their qualifier. Then there would be 4 matches in the next two days of real time. Then a day or two of night stuff and morning stuff, then another day with 5 matches that takes 3 days of real time. The the rounds of 16, 8, 4, 2 that take 2 IC days but 8 or 9 days of real time. Does that sound better? Have 9 of these, but have them faster and have a break for nighttime stuff in between?

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Jackie Clawson

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #8 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 2:27pm

You will still have to make areas for all the matches. as some people will decide to do the first one, but not the second and the third one whilst others might decide to do the third one and the fifth one. and this is something they can work on throughout PhaseIII as well. (OOC-wise anyway)

I posted thoughts on some of my fights, but doing a few JPs on other fights. which is okay. as you said we don't have to write up every match. Sometimes you don't know the person you are fighting IC OOC, so you can't JP with them in such a short period of time, but if you know them OOC, then it's easier to JP IC.

It might indeed be worthwile to have more fights (bigger choice for players to pick what they want to focus on/write about) but run them every 12 hours. and thus shorten the OOC time from a week to max five days.

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Rear Admiral Jackie Clawson
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K`Hare totlh

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #9 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 2:38pm

I was thinking I would make a Round 1-2 area, Round 3-4 area.... to reinforce that you only have a little time to post.

Or I could make day 1, the first 4 not be postable but let the last 5 be.... I ahve a year to plan and debate with the other judges and people.

So people, make your feelings known. Esp. some people who know they aren't making it to the 16 in this lifetime.

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Jackie Clawson

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #10 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 3:11pm

Maybe you can make the rounds ran on the same day as being one forum. I.e if round one and two are run in 24 hours, Forum 1 is Day 1: Round 1 -2 sort of thing and etc. to safe forum space. It's b=easier ot make all of them postable and leave the choice up to the players. otherwise what if they get first four people who they know well OOC, and last five they don't know anyone from there?

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Rear Admiral Jackie Clawson
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Taylor

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #11 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 3:22pm

Part of the point of betleH is meeting new people, so these matches are a good thing for that. Perhaps from reading things so far the answer might be just to condense the OOC time it takes like K'Hare suggested, 9 matches in a shorter space of time.

Maybe making it you need to post at least 1 or 2 matches during the period. That way folks can post more, but don't have too.

~Dan

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Taylor
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MBremer

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #12 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 3:38pm

I like the 7 matches spread out over a week. It adds some drama, brings more people into the tourny for longer, and does allow for fighters to recover from an early loss. However, I also agree that some people want to move forward too. I do like K'Hare's idea for 11 matches, with a match every 12hrs. That'll still be 5-1/2 days where everyone is involved before going to phase 3.

I'm not keen on any fighter skipping a round though. Everyone should be equal...never know who'll jump up and beat you as seen in round 6.

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Krahl

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #13 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 3:39pm

The longer and more detailed the OOc side of this is the better for IC.

As K'Hare said, Kur'rk would have risked an early exit. Now while thats possible in a knockout competition its rather random to have good fighters just disappear.

What I'd like to see is the NPC match to be compulsory and if anyone hasn't posted one by a deadline they are out. Its unfair to those like Hunter who make greast posts aftyer creating a setting he knows has no hope of getting into the last 16 while some other player sits doing nothing and is then in the finals.

I also think the bouts should all be posted. There are currently only one a day. The most anyone needs to do is check the net once and post one post. Yes they need to read a little and consider their opponent but they signed up to this tournament and the commitment it brings.

Thing is how long are people willing to spend here in real time?

For a good Tournament of this style and potential I'd gladly devote two months.

First week could be arrivals. Second week could be some qualification bouts NPC for example and two or three others. Third week could be the end of the qualifiers. Then on to the knockout stage.

Consider this - Each TF could be given a qualifying group. They fight it out. Top two from each TF go through. Best performers from the rest could be selected to make up a decent knockout round.

Lots of possible ways to organise this Tourney but I think the long qualifying period,in whatever way it is done, is essential to give everyone a fair footing and time to post.

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KentraDonrav

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Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Reply #14 - Feb 19^th, 2006, 3:59pm

I like the current format. From my perspective it's keeping things interesting all the way. Right now if I win my next match I'm in the next round and if I don't I'm probably out. That's exciting, and that gives me something to look forward to tonight.

In all honesty though it's kind of nice to see upsets, and maybe see some of the top fighters not get in. There's a tendancy in this sort of thing to make a character as much of a bad ass as possible, and really it's kind of nice to see people who are willing to lose fights because it suits their character, win a few upsets.

I do like the idea of disqualifying people who don't post their qualifying round against an NPC. That way good RPers can move forward. Also it's not an entirely unreasonable thing to require participants to post, ships all have posting limits why wouldn't a tournament like this which is essentially one big joint mission?

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