Fourth Annual BF betleH Tournament
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General Category >> Questions and Answers >> Phase 2 thoughts
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Message started by Taylor on Feb 19th, 2006, 8:54am

Title: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Taylor on Feb 19th, 2006, 8:54am

I spoke to Ta'pz last night about this, but does anyone else agree that 7 matches is just a few too many for the second phase? Of the people I've spoken too most are tired of the combat now and just want the next phase to begin - I count myself amongst these people actually.

I know it's too late for this competition but it's a point I wanted to raise for next year.

What does everyone else think? Best of 5 or best of 7?

~Dan

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 19th, 2006, 9:08am

7 matches gives you more chance to recover your losses if you suffered any at the beginning, but one week for those is a bit too long, especially if you don't expect any big write ups from people at the end of the thing anyway.  Wouldn't it be better to get Phase II over with ASAP, (say seven matches in five days....) and let the people involved in them but who won't make the final 16, post their stuff in designated forums, whilst Phase III commences? Thus, this will allow Phase III folks to recollect themseves and JP things properly instead of rushing through.

Maybe if the matches weren't run every 24 hours, but instead every 12 hours?

Since not every match has to be JPed or played out, I don't see why it should take 24 hours between things. (okay so it's to give people time to select their standing, but most keep theirs as it is from fight to fight anyway)  and you can run 2 matches (one every 12 hours) on weekends for instance. so even if we get 9 matches next year instead of 7. you can run 2 on Saturday, 2 on Sunday and one on each weekday. if we stick to one week for Phase II that is.

However, thinking in terms of IC... 7 matches in one day is a bit of a stretch for most non Klingons.

Just curious: and this may have been raised before, this is the first year this Phase II thing is working. what was wrong with the way last 3 years had the system set up?

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jim Hunter on Feb 19th, 2006, 12:44pm

It might be (bear in mind I've not bothered to check past tourney set-ups), to give people more of a chance to write a fight, and perhaps a win. If your fighter is rubbish, then with a standard tournament a la the FA Cup, you could be going home with sod all to write about, especially if Pezzle/Taylor is your first round opponent. With seven matches and one to a day, the thing is streched out a lot more, but assuming people actually respond to write ups, that time could be needed. If K'Hare posts the results of round two just as I go to bed at 10pm GMT, and my opponent (lets say Clawson) posts part of a write up within a couple of hours whilst I'm sleeping, that'd be okay for them, but I wake and head straight to work, where even with a half day I don't get in till 1pm. By that time, round three's already been posted, and my next opponent might have posted the first part of my next round up as well. a 24hr schedule is the only way to make sure everyone's got the same amount of time to respond (during decent hours).

It's also worth noting that people such as Taylor/Pezhead/Bremer may subconciously see phase II simply as an obstacle that needs to be dealt with before the tournament proper can begin, so might take less interest in it and just wait for the final rounds where instead of a'noN they'll face up against people they know from within the fleet.

Whilst I intend to keep Hunter around IC till the end, people such as Patrick Gage or I, again may see Phase II as their only activity at the tourney, so will take more interest in it. There are a lot more and probably will be even more people in the future that get knocked out in Phase II than make it to Phase III, so in theory, it should be the bulk of the tournament activity OOC. To cut it down then, doesn't seem to make much sense even in an OOC sense whereby the seven rounds are posted more frequently. If I have a double shift at work, I could easily miss three, perhaps even four rounds if they're on a 12 hour schedule, and if I'm only having my character attend so I can improve my combat writing, that's a big loss.

It doesn't really matter who wins the tourney IC, but if you get knocked out early, you've got less to post about than the last 16, even if you involve yourself in bar chat. I think then, that this setup is a good thing, if ultimately designed for more responses than there have been.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Taylor on Feb 19th, 2006, 1:05pm

As an aside, you should see T's Stats, winning once is pure fluke. He's got the skills of a young alexander ;)

I see what your saying, but we could do the same over 5 matches. My comment is raised purely from the OOC strains I've been under this year - it may be different for others but most of the people I have spoken too (Who I acknowledge usually agree with me) have found it just a hair's breath too long.

From my understanding so far this phase has been created to give people a chance to post, but there is a line between too much and too little. 7 feel's too long - especially since we started a little late. I can't say if 5 would be too little - I just thought it might be worth getting some feedback.

~Dan

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by KentraDonrav on Feb 19th, 2006, 1:36pm

I think 7 is a good number, though possibly doing ten in the same time period would be good too.  The more matches the more chance for things to even out.  Under a five match game if a character gets two hard draws in the opening round then that's it they're gone.  As it is now, or under a longer system, the character has a chance to come back.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 19th, 2006, 1:38pm

can't have an even number of matches. then we'll have people winning 5 and loosing 5 and there's no 'tie breaker'

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by KentraDonrav on Feb 19th, 2006, 1:43pm

It's still possible to be tied statistically in this round, based on number of wins/loses.  When I pointed this out it was pointed out to me that then things like Glory and Honour are used.  The European Champions League in football uses an even number of games in the opening rounds, so it's not impossible.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 19th, 2006, 2:02pm

Read what Hunter said.  Now read it again and think about it.

This is the first year.  My reaction to what has happened so far was we should have 9 or 11 rounds but do them every 12 hours.  One other change I will attempt to make next year is to make sure you don't face the same person twice.

Giving just 24 hours gives people who might want to a chance to write stuff up, but as I said at the start, we don't expect people to write them up because its a short time when you consider real life.  On the other hand, some people might know they aren't making it to phaseIII and may want to write up something.  So they could pick one or two of their matches. to try and write up.

Going to fewer matches means a better chance that a good fighter will get knocked out and a bad one will get in.  That's OK, but people might complain about that.  Look at Kur'rk.  He is a solid fighter.  Early on he had a bad record.  With 5 matches he would not have gotten in.  Wolfe vs. Ta'pez was in round 1 I think.  With just 5, he could have been knocked out.  I don't mind a few underdogs (Taylor) getting in, but you need at least 5 before skill starts to really affect the tree.  As it is, 2 fighters that should be in the top 16 don't have a chance now because of the schedule they faced or really bad luck.   The valkris-bremer fight was a real upset.

So, I have two choices.  I can go to 9 or 11 and reinterate that you don't have to write up everything.  Maybe make that formal and only make space for people to write every other fight?

Or, I can come up with some sort of seeding that lets the clearly stronger fighters (Wolfe, Ta'pez, Satian, etc) skip some early fights.

This phaseII thing was a way to get more fights for people.  Last year, with 32 or so fighters 16 only got one match which they lost, 8 got just 2 matches.  The first year I think there were 24 fighters and so 8 fought an extra round, 4 were out, then 8 were out the next round.  about 9 people got 1 match.

My personal feeling is go to 9 matches in two IC days, run every 12 hours.  So everyone would post their qualifier.   Then there would be 4 matches in the next two days of real time.  Then a day or two of night stuff and morning stuff, then another day with 5 matches that takes 3 days of real time.   The the rounds of 16, 8, 4, 2 that take 2 IC days but 8 or 9 days of real time.   Does that sound better?  Have 9 of these, but have them faster and have a break for nighttime stuff in between?

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 19th, 2006, 2:27pm

You will still have to make areas for all the matches. as some people will decide to do the first one, but not the second and the third one whilst others might decide to do the third one and the fifth one. and this is something they can work on throughout PhaseIII as well. (OOC-wise anyway)

I posted thoughts on some of my fights, but doing a few JPs on other fights. which is okay. as you said we don't have to write up every match. Sometimes you don't know the person you are fighting IC OOC, so you can't JP with them in such a short period of time, but if you know them OOC, then it's easier to JP IC.

It might indeed be worthwile to have more fights (bigger choice for players to pick what they want to focus on/write about) but run them every 12 hours. and thus shorten the OOC time from a week to max five days.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 19th, 2006, 2:38pm

I was thinking I would make a Round 1-2 area, Round 3-4 area.... to reinforce that you only have a little time to post.

Or I could make day 1, the first 4 not be postable but let the last 5 be....   I ahve a year to plan and debate with the other judges and people.


So people, make your feelings known.   Esp. some people who know they aren't making it to the 16 in this lifetime.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 19th, 2006, 3:11pm

Maybe you can make the rounds ran on the same day as being one forum. I.e if round one and two are run in 24 hours, Forum 1 is Day 1: Round 1 -2 sort of thing and etc. to safe forum space. It's b=easier ot make all of them postable and leave the choice up to the players. otherwise what if they get first four people who they know well OOC, and last five they don't know anyone from there?

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Taylor on Feb 19th, 2006, 3:22pm

Part of the point of betleH is meeting new people, so these matches are a good thing for that. Perhaps from reading things so far the answer might be just to condense the OOC time it takes like K'Hare suggested, 9 matches in a shorter space of time.

Maybe making it you need to post at least 1 or 2 matches during the period. That way folks can post more, but don't have too.

~Dan

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by MBremer on Feb 19th, 2006, 3:38pm

I like the 7 matches spread out over a week. It adds some drama, brings more people into the tourny for longer, and does allow for fighters to recover from an early loss. However, I also agree that some people want to move forward too. I do like K'Hare's idea for 11 matches, with a match every 12hrs. That'll still be 5-1/2 days where everyone is involved before going to phase 3.

I'm not keen on any fighter skipping a round though. Everyone should be equal...never know who'll jump up and beat you as seen in round 6.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Krahl on Feb 19th, 2006, 3:39pm

The longer and more detailed the OOc side of this is the better for IC.

As K'Hare said, Kur'rk would have risked an early exit.  Now while thats possible in a knockout competition its rather random to have good fighters just disappear.

What I'd like to see is the NPC match to be compulsory and if anyone hasn't posted one by a deadline they are out.  Its unfair to those like Hunter who make greast posts aftyer creating a setting he knows has no hope of getting into the last 16 while some other player sits doing nothing and is then in the finals.

I also think the bouts should all be posted.  There are currently only one a day.  The most anyone needs to do is check the net once and post one post.  Yes they need to read a little and consider their opponent but they signed up to this tournament and the commitment it brings.

Thing is how long are people willing to spend here in real time?

For a good Tournament of this style and potential I'd gladly devote two months.

First week could be arrivals.  Second week could be some qualification bouts NPC for example and two or three others.  Third week could be the end of the qualifiers.  Then on to the knockout stage.

Consider this - Each TF could be given a qualifying group.  They fight it out.  Top two from each TF go through.  Best performers from the rest could be selected to make up a decent knockout round.

Lots of possible ways to organise this Tourney but I think the long qualifying period,in whatever way it is done, is essential to give everyone a fair footing and time to post.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by KentraDonrav on Feb 19th, 2006, 3:59pm

I like the current format.  From my perspective it's keeping things interesting all the way.  Right now if I win my next match I'm in the next round and if I don't I'm probably out.  That's exciting, and that gives me something to look forward to tonight.  

In all honesty though it's kind of nice to see upsets, and maybe see some of the top fighters not get in.  There's a tendancy in this sort of thing to make a character as much of a bad ass as possible, and really it's kind of nice to see people who are willing to lose fights because it suits their character, win a few upsets.

I do like the idea of disqualifying people who don't post their qualifying round against an NPC.  That way good RPers can move forward.  Also it's not an entirely unreasonable thing to require participants to post, ships all have posting limits why wouldn't a tournament like this which is essentially one big joint mission?

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Krahl on Feb 19th, 2006, 4:16pm

Just reread my post above and rethought some parts...

OK some only have internet access at School, College, Grandma's etc.  Maybe expecting every bout posted is a bit harsh to those.  But only to those that really can't post daily.  They can always clear that with the Judges for dispensation and anyone the fight can post the bouts, taking into consideration the other player's rights.

And summing up  my whole opinion.  This year's set up is the best so far.  Don't reduce the qualifying period, but alter it as you see fit.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 19th, 2006, 4:20pm

All Matches in Phase II are not meant to be posted and detailed out. It's up to the players to pick which ones they can describe/post about.  but the Qualifying match really SHOULD be a requirement for all fighters participating. Otherwise, why should those who haven't posted their qualifier and such end up in the top 16 even if their skills are oh so l33t? Although, they're probably there just for the IC fighter's awards nothing else, which is fair enough I suppose...

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Kurrk on Feb 20th, 2006, 4:50pm

Two fighters in the final 16 haven't posted once yet all competition...

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by KentraDonrav on Feb 20th, 2006, 5:16pm

That hardly seems fair since a lot of good posters didn't get to move on.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 20th, 2006, 6:26pm

It happens every year.  If it makes you feel better, consider them NPCs... that is... some NPCs are top fighters.

Not much we can do.  If we post a simple minimum posting req then we will get that many short posts that don't add anything and we have enough content.  If we have the judges grade postings and let people move on that way, then you run into some subjective issues.  I mean... would ness get to continue on if *I* judged posts?

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Kurrk on Feb 20th, 2006, 6:59pm

Judged posts would be the worst ever way...

Though if a Judge such as K'Hare points out aspects of a post that are in error I'd hope others would listen.

No, post judging for progression is a nightmmare not worth considering.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jim Hunter on Feb 21st, 2006, 11:17am

Why not a minimum length rule? You must post X times and your posts must be at least Y words long. For some reason rules like that seem to scare some people, but it's as fair as anything else. If you're lazy, there's no point doing this, and if you honestly don't have the time, then don't sign up. That's why I've never done betleH before - it wouldn't be fair on others if I had K'Hunter entered as a combatant but didn't post because I was working overtime IRL.

I agree that judged posts are a bad idea though. I think that Bob's post was fantastic; the best I've ever seen in BF. K'Hare & Wado think it was rubbish so he 'loses' or whatever. The only way it could possibly work is if I was the sole judge.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 21st, 2006, 11:28am

Who's gonna be sitting here counting words in a post? really?

and yeah judged posts are a bit .... disconcerning for people. folks want to have fun (hopefully) to be aware that their posts are being judged might turn some away.

However, I don't see why fighters' IC moves and such can't be/shouldn't 'judged' by the judges, but for that the posters obviously have to write something more than "Bob came into the arena, wielding his custom made betleH, having seen this, his opponent quivered in fright and threw his blade away thus letting Bob win"  I'm sorry, but a two lined post describing an entire battle in such a way doesn't really tell me much about your character's fighting strategy and moves and interaction with their opponent.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jim Hunter on Feb 21st, 2006, 12:17pm


Jackie Clawson wrote:
Who's gonna be sitting here counting words in a post? really?


No one with a life, but that still leaves a good few people who could do it.

We wouldn't count words (though MSWord would probably do it quicker than me in any case), but if the minimum is 500 or whatever, and you see Bob's two liner, then you give a judge a shout and they have a word. If he does 480 words, I think most people would be okay with that. 500 would be a guide so each posted fight has a degree of detail.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 21st, 2006, 12:33pm

500 words is roughly one A4 page. (size 12 font)

Also have to keep in mind that some people can't write lengthy posts...just because I can write 3-4 page posts without much trouble, doesn't mean someone else can do it too without it being a joint post. Some people are better at writing the descriptive stuff than others are, as well. there's a difference of styles and people here. For some 500 would be too much.

It shouldn't be the length that matters, really, it should be the content. if they can project the same meaning in 200 words, then by all means.

it does mean they put more effort into things if people posted at least their qualifying posts with details. (since it's a match against an NPC anyway)

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jim Hunter on Feb 21st, 2006, 1:03pm

500 was just a suggestion. It could be 100 if that's preferred, though I don't think I simm directly with anyone who counts one page as a long post. Personally, if it doesn't reach the second page in Word, it's a short post, but that's me.

But if you can't write a decent fight, then what are you doing RPing a fighter? Have a spectator character instead and just respond to what others have written about their bouts - this is also the best way to learn if you're interested in improving your own fighting writing. Hunter's a pilot and not a medic because I can write a fairly believable and (I think) enjoyable post about shooting Cardassians pretty easily. I have a lot more trouble writing about open heart surgery.

You have to work from the assumption that everyone who writes a fighter is confident about their abilities when it comes to writing about fights. And with this assumption, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a decent amount of thought and effort to go into a post, especially if the character is good at fighting and progresses through the tourney.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 21st, 2006, 1:19pm

Personally I don't count anything as a decent post unless it's at least one page long. And I don't do descirptions that well, but at least I'm trying.

Some see it as a challanging and time consuming thing. writing lengthy posts. they don't want to sit and think about a post and how things will go in a post and how do they link up to other posts before theirs and to something in the future (i.e. plotting.. and I'll be the first to admit I'm not that grand at it, but I do enjoy the challenge of attempting things subplot by subplot)

Some people don't want to work for it, they are not sure why they are role playing (aside the glory and the rank, that is) but that is a whole other subject....then again some just can't be bothered to post much or anything even on a simm.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 21st, 2006, 3:09pm

On KDB I encourage short posts when you are doing scenes with a lot of people.  But then I have a script that will take a whole thread and make it one long post.

It all depends on the scene and the number of people.

But back to the topic.  At the tourney we can't judge peoples posts as part of the combat part of the tourney.  Too many styles and different standards.  Someone might be the best poster on one simm and not work well on my simm at all.   I remember a gorn who posted going into a bar at KDB and using a replicator.  Totally out of character for KDB.   Some simms have more freedom for the players, some are run like a table top game.  And If we set minimums some people will post just that.  The role playing awards are for people's content contributions.

The combat part of the tourney is just one aspect.  Next year Hunter and Clawson will do better because now you have a motiviation in character to improve their combat skill.  Not being a fighter doesn't stop you from participating.  You can still post and comment.  You can still challenge each other in the sparring room.  And I don't mean the web page.  I mean in character, in the bar late night, post doing a challenge and write up some of the combat, for fun, and then use the program to decide the final winner.  Or use the program and then rewrite it in a bar scene.

Remember, flim and flam said they would accept wagers on matches in the sparring room if both fighters agreed to the match and then posted it.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 21st, 2006, 3:20pm

Scenes with a lot of people are a whole different thing... I think me and Hunter were talking more about the  posts such as the qualifier post where it's just one player posting something.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by KVok on Feb 22nd, 2006, 12:48am

I think that there needs to be some sort of qualification for the final 16, even if it is just a crappy two line qualifying match. I'm going up against Wolfe and I'm worried that since he hasn't posted with anything since the first day, is he going to do a required joint post with me?

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Taj`vl on Feb 22nd, 2006, 1:19am

I like this format as it is... Last year, Ness was eliminated first round (by someone that's been permanently banned from the tourney. no less)...  Even with Taj, I am out first round of the brackets (whoops, spoiled that one.  but it wasn't much of a surprise).  The phase II matches gave me muh more to do.  I like them the way they are.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 22nd, 2006, 2:31am

I think the idea of phaseII wont go away.  It does give everyone more matches.  That was the point of adding it and we couldn't do it without the automated app.  You guys have no idea how much work it was to do the matches in previous years.

But 7 days of real time is too much.  Also, I think that there was a lot of RP posts before combat started and it slowed down after.  In part because so many people were tired from the 2500! posts and also, because people just went back in time to post because the day moved slow during phase II.

Putting this all together, I am leaning toward making it 9 rounds for phaseII but making that take two days and going 12 hours between fights.  So there would be a few days at the start in real time to get things going... then 2 days with 4 rounds of phaseII, then the night threads and the morning threads for the second day, and then 5 matches of phaseII.  I think that would spread out the stuff before combat, give people a few days in the middle of phaseII to conjecture on how its going, and just smooth the flow a little.    Finally, before next year I will come up with a way to insure that in phase II you face distinct opponents.  That should help make it more even.


EDIT:  I am not saying this is how it will be.  The judges will decide during the next year when we look back and think about what could be better.  This is just how I would vote now.  I am posting this so the *minions* can comment.  (:}

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by FADM Wolfe on Feb 22nd, 2006, 4:27am

Hey, I'm sick, and life's been a dirty nasty female dog right now... but you could PM or email me and we can work on a post :-)

Edit... opps... the above was in regards to a post about me not posting since day one :-(

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jim Hunter on Feb 22nd, 2006, 11:46am

Withdrawals would be a good addition to the program. Say the CIA finally catches up with me and I have to ship out to Tokyo tomorrow, I could click the 'Withdraw' button at the bottom of my profile, and with a bit of luck, the program would compensate, causing Hunter to forfeit his remaining matches.

If it's late into Phase II, and he's already got a good record and so goes to Phase III, that could either result in an interesting group of IC interactions, or simply a substitution by one of the judges; whoever was next in line takes his spot.

Once the code is written for such a choice, it can also be implemented by K'Hare, so if I don't post at all and can't be contacted, he can cause Hunter to withdraw.

The choice following such a decision would be whether or not to have Hunter withdraw IC, or simply lose his remaining matches. Disqualification would be interesting, but I'm not sure what IC reason would be cooked up.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by Jackie Clawson on Feb 22nd, 2006, 11:54am

I like the sound of that.. obviously none of us can guarantee for sure that we'll be free all of Feb to participate in the competition. So an option to withdraw/forfeit should be available for the players.  It's fairly easy to cover up IC if you're a CO/TFCO/BFCO, a bit harder to do if you're a player, but it would be fun to do nevetheless..

There is always the idea of something happens which gets someone disqualified (say the character takes some meds which make him stronger, but the judges don't know about it, until later on... or the character cheats somehow; that might go well if the character has a good track record. or the character sabotaged their opponents' blades, or used another weapon or something in the arena other than the betleh. (although that last one might be a bit tricky to pull off... but certainly possible.  old fashioned knife or if it's a Klingon character, maybe their Daqtagh...or if it's a human character fighting with a Klingon character, who's to say they can't snag the Klingon's Daqtagh and stab the Klingon? that's likely to get them disqualified...)

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by KVok on Feb 22nd, 2006, 12:23pm

Or starting a fight in a bar that leads to their arrest for the duration of the tournament.

Title: Re: Phase 2 thoughts
Post by K`Hare totlh on Feb 22nd, 2006, 1:48pm

One idea a player gave me that I will work on is the idea of someone throwing the fight.  I am going to try and add something that lets you fight at a lower skill after the tourney so it would be there next year.  Say you have a skill 6.   This would let you fight at skill 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6.  You would change that value just like you change your honor stance... just don't forget to fix it later.  (:}  That would make it easy for me to make it unlikely someone would win.  OF course, sometimes upsets happen.

Right now it really is a pain for me to force the program to make somene win.  I don't even see who wins now until I post it on the site.  Its all automated and the match happens, files get made, and email goes out.

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